Curse

Mithie · Aug 21, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I don't have a problem with touch rangers. I just don't understand why people like to play touch rangers. It's one of the MOST boring classes you could possibly play (except maybe a rit lord spirit spammer). All you do is c, spacebar, 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 oh look i'm getting hit 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 oh look he's running 4 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 ....

There's no reflexes involved, no finesse, and no flexibility. In short - a really boring class to play.

eternal pho · Aug 21, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Ice ele's work wonderfully in this case.

lyra_song · Aug 21, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I love how the anti-whining thread turned into a whining thread about anti-whining.

Mera Regila · Aug 21, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by skull

Hi,

I agree to a point about exploiting. That point being that now there are 2-skills that are exactly the same except for the name (Vampiric Touch and Vampiric Bite). In my opinion ANet needs to stop this nonsense practice of skill replication and have only one skill i.e. the original Vampiric Touch. Otherwise you will soon have 3-skills that are exactly the same after Nightfall has been released.

It is also for this reason I don't like touchies. I feel that there is an exploit here and it seems to be more of a cheap way to win.

BTW. My own defense for Touch Rangers is to play as Necro and bring along Wither and Malaise (as another poster said). Rangers have only 3-pips in energy regen and shutting down their energy regen I think is key to killing them. Another way with a Necro is massive health degen plus the Necros own health stealing skills. As a Necro you should be able to out 'health steal' a Touch Ranger with no problem.

Another problem when playing against Touch Rangers in PVP is that you really have to check before the match begins what professions your opponents are. This requires targeting the R/N before other opponents i.e. the Monk which everyone targets and expects you to target as well. I have had a few touchies sneak up on me this way after getting off my first spells because I was targetting someone else via the 'T' key. They were then able to take me down because of key skill regen times and lack of energy on my part.

I also agree with others that for some professions to do well in PVP, they have to bring extra skills just in case they meet a toucher...and I don't think ANET intended this.

BTW opponets with both a Touch Ranger and a good healing monk can be hell if you haven't brought the right counter skills. The Monk will concentrate all his healing on the touchie and it is damn hard to kill them sometimes in RA because of the randomness of the teams you get there.

1. It is NOT exploitation, it's a clever cross-classing combination, taking advantage of Expertise by using your secondary with expertise skills. I highly doubt that anet forsaw "in a few years there'll be a build called the touch ranger" if they did it would be "TOUCH RANGER, NERF, NERF!!!!!!!".

2. Wither and Maliase are much better used on a Monk, because it completely shuts down the other team's healing, as long as you're using a cover hex.

3. Most touch rangers are stupid and don't care weather a hammer warrior is on them or not when they use Offering of Blood. They will effectively cut 20% of their own exp, and be killed by the frenzied warrior. What's conveniant about Frenzy warriors against touchies is that life stealing doesnt count as damage, therefore it isn't doubled with frenzy.

4. Monk is FAR more important than a touch ranger as target priority, sure touchies may be able to do decent damage, but monks heal the other team, this makes them far more important. R/N i often use in RA without touchie builds because i know everyone'll target me first thinking im a touchie.

5. Been explained A MILLION TIMES on this thread alone, that you don't need extra skills just incase you meet a toucher, the counters i mentioned have far more uses elswhere.

6. Touchie+Healer/Boon Prot Monk should give you an annoying team, if this happens you should focus all your attention on the boonprot monk, because it's more important than the toucher, as i already mentioned.

prism2525 · Aug 21, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Crippling anguish + Malaise + conjure phantasm + life siphon = toucher owned. I managed to solo a toucher 1 vs 1 in a scrimmage.

Mera Regila · Aug 21, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I love how the anti-whining thread turned into a whining thread about anti-whining.

... Whining thread about anti whining?

Mera Regila · Aug 21, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by prism2525

Crippling anguish + Malaise + conjure phantasm + life siphon = toucher owned. I managed to solo a toucher 1 vs 1 in a scrimmage.

PWNED! I'm sure this would also make for a pwned warrior in RA, good combo, except deep wound would be a good addition.

Mera Regila · Aug 21, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

I don't have a problem with touch rangers. I just don't understand why people like to play touch rangers. It's one of the MOST boring classes you could possibly play (except maybe a rit lord spirit spammer). All you do is c, spacebar, 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 oh look i'm getting hit 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 oh look he's running 4 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 ....

There's no reflexes involved, no finesse, and no flexibility. In short - a really boring class to play.

All skills in a touch ranger's bar are usually:
Vamp Touch
Vamp Bite
Throw Dirt
Plague Touch
Offering of Blood {E}
Whirling Def
Dodge/Zojun's Haste
Ressurection Signet

There is way more work involved in a touchie's build than you mentioned.

Mithie · Aug 21, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I love how the anti-whining thread turned into a whining thread about anti-whining.

Hey hey! Welcome to Guild Wars Guru!

Mera: Those are all good counters, but I have something to add with this one:

Quote:

6. Touchie+Healer/Boon Prot Monk should give you an annoying team, if this happens you should focus all your attention on the boonprot monk, because it's more important than the toucher, as i already mentioned.

What I like to do in TA when I meet a team like this is pressure the boon prot until one of the R/Ns decide to go OoB, in which case I call a spike on him and usually he goes down easy.

The OoB is like the toucher's permanent deep wound.

Mera Regila · Aug 21, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Crippling Anguish > Conjure Phantasm > Archane Echo > Archane Larceny > Echoed Archane Larceny > Archane Thievery

3 skills disabled, and still not reached you to do any damage yet (thanks, Cripling Anguish!) then...

Energy Burn > Blackout

Wand to death... (or run further away and start all over again!)

Wouldn't work, touchies use a grand total of one spell in their regular builds, therefore you would steal only one. The first three skills would work, but not the rest.

Mera Regila · Aug 21, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Hey hey! Welcome to Guild Wars Guru!

Mera: Those are all good counters, but I have something to add with this one:

What I like to do in TA when I meet a team like this is pressure the boon prot until one of the R/Ns decide to go OoB, in which case I call a spike on him and usually he goes down easy.

The OoB is like the toucher's permanent deep wound.

Well, you have to admit, adding regular deep wound couldn't hurt ^ ^!

Chewbacca Defense · Aug 21, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Possible Solution #1
Not a full proof solution, but a build I use. Not as effective as a crip-shot or mesmer, but still fun if timed correctly:

R/x (Use R/N for extra irony)

Skills
Pin Down
Oath Shot {e}
Distracting Shot
Hunter's Shot
Apply Poison
Whirling Defence
Troll Ungent, Debilitating Shot, or Storm Chaser
Troll Ungent or Rez Signet (if not in AB)

Attributes
13 expertise
11 Wilderness
11 Marks

Armor: +35 health for 585 max health /w +30HP weapon bonus

Weapon: +5e Recurve Bow + 33% crippling & +30 fort.

You have to play smart and catch the toucher when they aren't in stance, then you can crip them for 15 seconds, so they're S.O.L. after that. If they have a stance up, just kite until it's over. Not as effective as crip shot, but more defensive versus Melee as Whirling can be almost renewed constantly.

Possible Solution #2
This is the most effective way to avoid touchers all together if you don't want to build against them. This solution is so full proof and effective that very few will use this.

format c:\

axe · Aug 21, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Crying over Touchers > Crying over IWAY > 1 ecto > 1 shard

I will say this, play the game the way its most fun to you and expect others to do the same. If people have fun playing a toucher they will play them no sense in making a big deal about it, I dont find them taking away my fun as it is both fun and Hilarious to crush those little guys on my warrior (I have a TEAM with me as this is a team game) and I can outdamage their healing and my monk can outheal their damage, and worst case scenario is I end up needing to run.

Play this game for fun, other people do and they wont stop playing touchers just so you can have fun. Do whatever you want in this game just dont step on my blue suede shoes

Michel Longshorts · Aug 21, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Kiting > Touch Ranger

Hrm, yes Ive tried this. I actually have a story to tell.
As a boon/prot I tried to kite a touch ranger. If I was by myself this would eventually lead to my doom as my energy ran low. Instead I decided to kite round two teamates of mine (Necro and an Ele I belive). I was pretty darn sure that at least two characters could take down the toucher while I was kiting(toucher getting one hit on me now and then as I casted). But no, doing so for a good few minutes resulted in my death.

Is it my fault or the stupidity of my teamates?

I see a lot of comments about DPS in this. Sure, a LOT of characters can deal more DPS than a touch ranger, however you have to realise that the ranger is HEALING himself at the same rate.

What irritates me is that taking down a toucher requires a specific build. Taking down any other kind of character you can sort-of get away with most builds. Its either Warrior-KD-Warriors Cunning, Mesmer-Diversion, Necro-Degen-Kite, Elementalist-Freeze (and I think assasins would do well but not sure).

glountz · Aug 21, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by prism2525

Crippling anguish + Malaise + conjure phantasm + life siphon = toucher owned. I managed to solo a toucher 1 vs 1 in a scrimmage.

1)1Vs1 means nothing.
2)You devoted half your skillbar to counter one Touch. What if you don't meet one? What if you meet four? I believe in addition the rest of your skillbar is devoted to e-management.
3) Malaise ends when you hit 0 energy. Any clever touch ranger will do focus swapping to get rid of malaise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

Backfire=No OoB for a touch with any idea what he's doing
Diversion=One touch disabled, cutting Touchie dps IN HALF
Blackout=Works just as well as it does with any other build using only skills
Devastating Hammer+Crushing Blow+Fierce Blow=Kills touchies as well as anything else.

1) Backfire. Only completely stupid touchies would run OoB with this on them. You assume touchies are stupid players. BTW, Backfire doesn't hit at all the whole rest of their skill bar AND is easily removed.
2) Diversion. Yeah, if you hit Vamp touch/bite. And again, you assume the touchie to be stupid and use his skill while div his on him. A clever touchie will simply run away waiting the hex to wear off. And Diversion can handle one touchie. Not two. Or three. Or four.
3) Blackout. Wow. You disabled yourself and the touchie for... What, 6-7 seconds? It's a draw. Not a winning move. Useful before calling a spike, though.
4)KD chain. I forgot to mention, again, that touchies are completely stupid and won't use evade stances when a frenzied hammer warr will strike their face. Wild blow? You will have problems to build the AD needed for your KD chain, then.
5) Kiting. I should mention that if you force your opponent to kite, then its a first step to victory. While kiting you, your opponent don't do anything. More, if you run faster than him, you will win on the long run, lowering is HP (and forcing energy use to heal), and forcing him to run instead of actually doing damage on the opponent.

I used Touch ranger's build. I found it to be a cheap build, extremely powerful in random situations (RA, AB).
Only teamplay win over it (by calling spikes on them, cripple them and ordering all your party members to flee them), but for unorganised newbies, it is extremely hard to overcome it. What I mean is that an unorganized team of Touchies will almost always win over an unorganised team of anything else.

Again, Im' not against the overall clever use of Expertise to diversify the use of secondary professions for the ranger, but the copying of Vamp touch boosted this build toward imbalance.

unholy guardian · Aug 21, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

What kind of monk do you play? I know for a fact Boon Prot can keep up with the DPS of two touchers at least, and other spike builds simply pwn touchers to the core.
Elementalists=More DPS than touchers, mroe spike capability.
Assassins=Outdamage touches, are faster at dealing damage than them.
Warriors=Can beat the tar out of a toucher, pure and simple.
Monks=WAY outheal.
Mesmers=Pwned with some of the counters mentioned on teh first post.

not to be rude, but have you even tried a normal warrior build versus a toucher, lol they die.

Assassin's are not only easly countered, but also can be evaded or have the damage reduced.

mesmers yeah, usually they can win with a good enough degeneration build.

Elemantalists.. depends on the target.

Count to Potato · Aug 21, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

My solution is easy, Immolate-Meteor, Run around in circles, the degen will kill any touch ranger

As a mesmer Conjure Phantasm-Nightmare, Illusion of Haste- Imagined Burden

lyra_song · Aug 21, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

... Whining thread about anti whining?

nah, i honestly do find it hilarious

Monkey Blonde · Aug 21, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I mainly play touch ranger for one reason: to get faction, whether it's Baltazar to unlock skills or alliance faction for whatever reason. I use the build in Alliance Battles, Random Arenas, and this past weekend in Fort Aspenwood. Here are my thoughts on some of the above posts:

At least in my experience, I have had NO problems with warriors and usually assassins. Why ? Throw Dirt. Even without it, I am generally able to take them down as my "attacks" are self-healing. I simply last longer.

Rangers with Crippling Shot and Poison ? You better make sure you don't have any teammates around. This also goes for suggestions of Deep Wound. If I can't reach one of your teammates, then yeah, I'll die.

It puzzles me greatly when a warrior blinds me from melee range. I'll never figure that one out. Yes, it does happen.

Any casts of Empathy or other such irrelevant hexes are much like blinding me or like blinding monks and mesmers. They simply indicate the person simply doesn't understand the build / game enough.

For those of you calling for a nerf, or thinking that Vamp Touch and Bite should be spells, or that Expertise should be fixed: ANet has already spoken and acted on the issue. They have said it was a build that could and should be countered and they didn't feel it was overpowered. Also, notice the in-game description of Expertise has been changed to a reduction of the energy cost of all your "non-Spells", as opposed to the previous wording of traps, preparations, and attacks. For me, this indicates that ANet intends the energy discount to be applied as it is currently. You simply cannot argue coherently that this was overlooked by ANet any longer.

Degen is the best way to kill a good touch ranger. If they don't have a body near them, they have no healing or condition removal. They never have hex removal. Just make sure your teammates stay away. Energy denial won't work all that well against good ones - focus swapping. I have 3 levels of energy and no longer have energy problems. This also helps waiting out Backfire.

Don't expect a nerf. Touch rangers do not pose a problem to skilled players. If you don't have the skills to counter them in your build, you'd better have the sense to stay away from them. You don't see them having much success in organized team play, and as such, no nerf is called for.

RandomEngy · Aug 21, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I won't get into whether or not TRs are balanced in different situations (that's a can of worms), but I can say that the commonly spouted tactic "kill the touch ranger first" is idiotic. Here you have a character with a large capacity to self-heal (which far outstrips the sacrifice with OoB), and great defense against physical, elemental (natural armor), and condition degen (cheap plague touch). You don't focus everything on the most hardened character. You just kite him and kill his pals. Remember if the TR is at full health, his self-healing does not benefit the team at all.